The Danger of Celebrity Health Advice (w/Dr. Paul Offit) | Incident Report 192

The Danger of Celebrity Health Advice (w/Dr. Paul Offit) | Incident Report 192

– We’re live! Oh my gosh. You guys, I’m so excited. I’m so excited today because we have the dark lord of vaccines. The person that the
anti-vaxxers hate so much, and the reason they hate him is that he saves lives every single
day through communication, through vaccine development, through science promotion, and through being an amazing superstar. Everybody, you’re not gonna believe it. It’s Doctor Paul Offit. Paul, welcome to the show. – Thank you. – Now, I gotta say something. I start with the bad. We spent about five minutes
talking to each other. We’ve never met. I’ve been a fan of yours since 2010 when I made my first
vaccine video and I Googled. Actually I want to tell that story later about how I was vaccine hesitant
after my kooky neighbor, this was in the Bay area, was like “You know that vaccines are
associated with autism, man.” And I’d just had my kid and
I was like “Wait, what?” I’m a hospitalist, right,
I don’t vaccinate babies. And I’m like “Wait,
wait, wait, wait, wait.” I went down a Google hole, and I saw a very attractive woman by the name of Jenny McCarthy telling me that I was killing my
baby by giving vaccines. And then I saw a less attractive woman named Paul Offit (laughs) who happened not to be a woman saying “No, no, no, no, no, here’s the science.” And it was your persuasion
that made me look at the primary data and
realize “Okay, I get it now.” Not only are they safe, they’re effective. They’re one of our great advances. So having you on the show today, I wanna talk to you with our audience about how we can better communicate ’cause you have a book that came out that I had the pleasure of
reading before it came out, and the whole time I’m turning the pages, I’m like throwing feces ’cause
I’m so angry or excited. That’s what I do ’cause I’m a monkey. And I was like “This is a handbook.” It’s Bad Advice: Why Celebrities,
Politicians, and Activists Aren’t Your Best Source
of Health Information. It’s a handbook on how
we can better communicate in a sea of Gwyneth
Paltrows, Jenny McCarthys, Donald Trumps, the
science denial all around. So let’s start with why are you such a shameless
shill for big pharma? (Paul laughs) I saw you pull up in an Uber
that looked like a Honda Civic and I’m like “That’s a lie, alright.” – I’m not a shill for big pharma. I was fortunate enough to work with the team at Children’s
Hospital Philadelphia that developed the strains that became the bovine human reassortant
rotavirus vaccine, RotaTeq, which was licensed and
recommended for use in all children in this country in 2006 and then for the world by the World Health Organization in 2013. I mean only pharmaceutical
companies have the resources and expertise to do that, to do the research and development. – Wait, wait, wait. So Logan Stewart in the
back there in a meth lab can’t just create a
RotaTeq rotavirus vaccine? – It’s a little hard to
make hundreds of millions of doses in your lab, true. – You don’t know Logan, alright? He broke bad in like 1992. This guy’s had a lot of practice. So I think this point of like “Yeah, you have to work
with Merck to make a vaccine “that’s scalable to actually
get to lots of people.” – And the minute you do
that, you’re a bad guy. You are. There’s no way to answer that question. I’m asked that question. I was asked that question by
Matt Lauer on Dateline NBC. I was asked that question by – That guy’s a pervert, by the way. – [Paul] By Steve
Colbert, Stephen Colbert. – Less of a pervert. – The minute your name is associated with a pharmaceutical company, the truth of the matter
was I was always funded by the National Institutes of Health but the fact of the matter
is I was patent holder on something that became a vaccine. Now I’m the intellectual
property of my hospital therefore the hospital
really owns the patent, but you get tired of explaining it. It never convinces anybody anyway because it’s you work with
the pharmaceutical company therefore you’re evil. (knocking on glass) – Wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, look. Look at this! (yelling offscreen) It’s an anti-vax protestor. (laughs) – [Producer] Oh, is that what that? – Yeah. – [Producer] Wow. – You know what’s amazing?
– [Producer] Wow. – So see this is amazing. – [Paul] Really? – You can’t see them on
camera so guys, guys, ZPac. – [Paul] Wait, that’s really true? – Yeah, there are actually. – [Paul] This is not a joke Paul. – This is not a joke. There are actually anti-vax activists outside the window right now. – [Producer] Bye
(door shuts) – And now they’re gone
’cause Tom turned ’em off. This is what we want to talk about too. You hear ’em? – Yeah, what is he saying? – I dunno but Tom’s gonna make
sure that the door is locked and also that Logan’s gun is cocked. – [Tom] I’m going to.
(knocking) (laughter) – You hear ’em? – [Paul] Yeah, yes. – ZDogg! – [Protestor] ZDogg!
(knocking) – So Paul. – [Paul] Yes. – Let’s get into this because
I think this is fascinating. Because you created a
vaccine in partnership with a pharmaceutical, right, you’re now a target of
parents who think that we’re causing harm with vaccinations. You spend 25 years of your life developing a vaccine that saves lives, that saves I think it’s been estimated hundreds of lives a day, because rotavirus kills children. You do this. You’re a passionate
advocate for scientists, for science. You’re a pediatrician. You’re a good human being. You’re a lovely introverted
person who in five minutes I loved talking to, and you get this as a reward. (pounding) Why? – Well, I think. I’ll give you a story. When I was asked to speak once to a group of legislators in
New Haven, Connecticut, and after I was done speaking about this, about whether or not
vaccines could cause autism, a woman came up to me who
was the mother of a child with autism and just
started screaming at me, at the top of her lungs screaming at me. And it always gets to me. I never get so thick-skinned
that this doesn’t bother me. – Listen to this guy screaming, yeah. – [Paul] These guys are bothering me. – Yeah. – The state senator that gave
me a ride to the train station to go back to Philly said
something that I’ll never forget, and it’s a true statement. You know you’ve gotten to the
center of things when you meet the very best people and
the very worst people, and I think that’s happened to me. But I also have had the
good fortune to meet some of very best people. People like you. People like Peter Hotez
who’s the father of a child with autism who deals with the financial and emotional burden of that and still puts himself out there. Sharon Humiston, Amy Pisani, there’s so many good people out there trying to do good things
for all the right reasons and I had the good fortune
of being able to meet them, so I think I’m lucky. I think I’m lucky in all this. – You know, I love the way
that you are able to bring positivity out of what is a
very challenging situation because I read your book and there are stories in the
book that are really dramatic about how you’ve been trailed
and harassed in public, threatened with death threats. How many confirmed death
threats were there? – Three. – Three confirmed. Now, one of the things
you taught me in the book, which I had to learn ’cause
I get death threats too, is in order for a threat
to be considered credible, it has to be specific so like “This is how I’m gonna kill you.” It has to be repeated more than once, and it has to have some plausibility, was that the third thing? – Yeah, it has to be a person who the FBI thinks could do it. – [Z] I see. – So like a paranoid schizophrenic. – So someone who’s a little bit off, like this guy,
(pounding) who then could theoretically do that. I think Tom’s speaking
to the police right now, – Great. – Because we are trying to do a show and luckily, Logan is armed so (laughs). Just so they know that. Because we’re in Las Vegas. – [Paul] This is an open carry state? – This is open carry state, and Logan was raised from
very young learning gun safety and hunting with his dad
and that sort of thing. So in the book too, you talk about kind of
how we as scientists, your first chapter is like how scientists are just terrible communicators. One of the funniest things in the book, and the book is very funny by the way, and I remember you’d ask
me “Is it funny at all?” And I’m like “Dude, it’s hilarious.” Me and my friends are laughing because you said the difference between a scientist who’s an introvert and a scientist who’s an extrovert. A scientist who’s an
introvert stares at their feet when they talk to you. A scientist who’s an
extrovert stares at your feet when they talk to you. And that’s spot on, that’s spot on. How is it that someone,
again like yourself, who is deep into science,
130 publications on vaccines, how is it that you’re able
then to become a communicator in a way that puts yourself
in this kind of space? – For me, it was on one hand, I think I saw how hard
it was to make a vaccine. It was a 26 year effort
ending in a prospective placebo-controlled, 11-country, four-year, 350 million dollar trial
to prove that a vaccine was what it was claiming to be and so that it was safe and effective. While that was happening,
I also watched how, I could see how hard it was to make them, but at the same time I could see how easy it was to damn them. When Andrew Wakefield published
his paper in the Lancet in 1998 claiming that the
MMR vaccine caused autism, it was not a study. It was just a case series
of basically eight children who got autism within a
month of getting a vaccine. I mean you might as well
have published a paper showing eight children who got leukemia and the month before that had eaten peanut butter sandwiches. Really, it was that level
– [Z] That lame, yeah. – Of sophistication. And then people made
in the United Kingdom, made the choice not to
vaccinate their children so thousands of people got measles and hundreds were hospitalized and four children died. Four children died, in a
sense because of that paper. I mean that was a wake up call to me. That we as scientists have
to be willing to stand up and get in this game of explaining not only that it doesn’t make sense, but why it doesn’t sense. I mean address the science of why his hypothesis never made sense, and when I did that I was a bad guy. To some people I was a bad guy. – [Z] Sure. – [Paul] To some people I was a good guy, but to some people I was a bad guy. – Well I mean I’ll tell you, and again, I don’t wanna blow
too much smoke up your butt. But because you get so much hate, the love that you get, when I told my friends who
are pediatrics in particular, that you were gonna be on the show, it was like a deity came down from on high because you are so revered
for standing up for children. That’s really what it is. You told a really funny
story in the book too because you’ve been on Colbert, you’ve been on Daily’s show, the story of being on Colbert. Do you want to tell that story or you wanna save it for the book? – No, no, sure.
– [Z] It’s funny. – It was the second time I was on Colbert. The last question that he asked me was “So it’s out there, you’re
in the pocket of industry, “how do you respond to it?” and I said “At Children’s
Hospital of Philly, “we’re not in the pocket of industry, “If anything we’re in
the pocket of children “because we do this and this and this” And so people booed. People booed loudly. It was about 300 people
in the studio audience. It’s a little unnerving to be
booed loudly by 300 people. So I asked the associate producer, the way that ended up was
’cause he’s a good guy, I mean he knows science. His father actually was a
infectious immunology person in South Carolina who died when
Colbert was only 10 years old, but he’s very much pro-science and he didn’t want me to be
booed on national television in front of millions of people. So he said “That’s not
the answer you want. “We’ll try it again.” He asked it again so
the second time I said “You can’t on the one hand praise vaccines “for being safe and effective “and not praise those who
make them safe and effective.” And then something you’re
specifically told not do, I looked at the audience and
I said “Was that any better?” And everybody cheered.
(Z laughing) So then the way they edited it, ’cause it’s not a live show, it’s live to tape as they say. You see me say something
nice about vaccine makers and people in the United States cheering on national television which has probably never happened before. When I was walking out, I asked the associate
producer “Why did people boo?” And she said “You know people like you don’t
realize it’s a comedy show, “and when you said you’re
in the pocket of children, “it made you sound like a pedophile.” When we were driving to the
train station that night, ’cause this is New York we
were going back to Philly, my wife and daughter were with me and I said “Would you
ever have imagined that?” And my daughter said
“Yeah, I imagined that. “That’s why I booed.” (Z laughing) – Got booed by your own daughter. How old are your kids now? – So they’re 26 and 23. – Wow, so are you worried about them with all the sort of hate? – I don’t think so. I really don’t. I choose to believe
that most of the people in this world are good, and they see the good
in my children and me, and I choose to believe that. But yeah, there’re always
going to be the people like the people outside that
are knocking on that glass. – Right, right. Who are now gone because
the police have been called. Actually I want to dig
into that a little bit because there’s a
humanity here that I think we often miss when we make an us and them. And you and me are good at, I think, polarizing people in that sense because we are so passionate about, again, not being being in children’s pockets, being on children’s sides and saying “You know what, we have our own kids. “They’re fully vaccinated. “We’ve been through this. “We’ve studied it.” Unlike what the anti-vaxxers say, we’ve actually had quite a bit of training on vaccine science, on immunology and we want to do good in the world and no good deed seems to be unpunished. And then when we see
people denying science, the Jenny McCarthys, the Goops, the Gwyneth Paltrows, the Donald Trumps, you say regardless of
what your politics are you can say that science
denial is not okay when the science is largely settled. The question then is
the anti-vaccine people, the mothers that you talked
about who have children with autism who are suffering, they’re looking for answers. How do we love and have
compassion for them without getting triggered and angry? Because even in your book
you said at one point you lost your temper and
you got angry in a debate and that was a bad idea. – Yeah, I guess I feel an
enormous amount of sympathy for parents who have to struggle with difficulties of a
child who’s on the spectrum. I think it’s emotionally burdensome. On some level it’s financially burdensome. I get that, and I think people want answers
and there aren’t answers. I mean there isn’t a clear
cause, there isn’t a clear cure so its really frustrating and I think what makes me
most sympathetic is that I feel like they’ve been duped, that people like Andrew
Wakefield or Jenny McCarthy have duped them into thinking
that this is the answer, that vaccines were the answer. Therefore if they don’t
vaccinate their future children that they won’t have to suffer this, and if they try and figure
out what they can do to sort of detoxify whatever it was that toxified their children like chelation therapy, which some people offer. – [Z] Right, or bleach enemas. – That’s right. That that’s gonna make them all better and it just, I feel
that they’ve been duped. I feel enormously sorry for them. I had to speak at a Bryn Mawr
Library a couple nights ago and there was a woman who
actually drove up from Baltimore, and she really wanted an answer. She wasn’t angry. She felt that her child
had gotten a vaccine, actually DTAP vaccine, and had been hurt by that vaccine and now he’s autistic and can’t we just do something
to find out what happened. I talked to her for some length of time trying to explain to her, because she felt it all
happened within minutes of getting the vaccine which just doesn’t make biological sense. – [Z] But it makes emotional
sense, Paul, right? – No, no, I know. For instance what Jenny McCarthy says “My child got the vaccine
and within moments,” quote, “the soul left his eyes.” – [Z] Right, right, right. – The vaccine doesn’t work that fast. But you know, you want to help her. You do want to help her, and the only way I can think to help her is to say I don’t think this is it. I don’t think that the
vaccines are your answer. I make an analogy for example of Type 1 diabetes in the 1800’s. No one knew what caused Type
1 diabetes so there were all these wacky kind of
causes and wackier cures and then Banting and Bess
discovered insulin 1921 and all of that went away. And I feel like we’re
always going to be living with this until we have
a clear cause or causes for what is autism or austisms and have something more that we can offer other than behavioral therapies, other than long term therapies which is not terribly satisfying. People want something to make it go away. I think people like Andrew
Wakefield or Jenny McCarthy or Gwyneth Paltrow offer
those kinds of magic cures, and it’s seductive. – It is very seductive. It guess it’s one of those things ’cause you had actually donated proceeds from one of your books
to an autism foundation. Is that your foundation? – I was one of the founding
advisor board members of the Autism Science Foundation. Alison Singer runs that
foundation out of New York and it’s a great foundation. It’s the only autism foundation with the word science in the title, and they really try and
understand, honestly, sort of the genetics of
autism and that will help. What I love about Alison Singer actually, so her eldest daughter is autistic and fairly severely autistic and so she now has created, she devotes all her
energies to what is clearly a long term solution if it’s
to be a solution at all. So what are the genetics? What gene or genes are expressed early in the first trimester? It’s a developmental gene that could explain what we see as autism. ‘Cause you do know that these first-trimester environmental factors like for example, thalidomide, or rubella, natural rubella infection, or valproic acid, an anti-seizure drug
increases your risk of autism. That’s interesting, what’s happening then. What gene or genes are affected by these environmental factors or are
just genetically involved? Paternal age is clearly a risk factor. When Donald Trump has
a child on the spectrum and Robert De Niro has
a child on the spectrum it’s because they were
roughly 60 years old when they had their children. That’s probably the reason, so
what is the genetics of that. That is understandable. It’s not gonna be a single gene like cystic fibrosis
or sickle cell disease. It’ll be multiple genes
so it won’t be easy, but I think it’s understandable. – See, that to me is one of
the great tragedies of being on this goose chase with the vaccines which we’ve shown time and time again and again the multiple studies, you predicted back when
this started that studies would show that this isn’t
the case and that proved true. Now so much effort in parents’ communities are spent thinking about
vaccines as a cause when it’s all those
things you talked about and probably much more that are leading to diagnoses of autism. One of the the big
controversies that comes up is autism an epidemic or
are we diagnosing it better. Where do you kind of fall
on this as a pediatrician? – I think we certainly
have far more awareness. I mean what used to be primary autism has become autism spectrum disorder so it’s a much broader
range of activities, and we’re certainly more aware of it. And I do think there is, we are older when we have our children now as compared to say when
my mother and father had me when they were in their 20’s. So I think that all contributes so I think there is
actually a real increase, it just doesn’t have
anything to do with vaccines. – Again, I want to apologize to you because you literally you flew from Philly through Charlotte to here,
got right off the plane, got in the Uber, came right to here. Tomorrow you’re doing a
talk and you’ve been busy. This morning you did ground rounds at like 5:30 a.m. Pacific time and you’ve been busy, busy, busy and I’m sure you’re exhausted so the fact that you care enough about talking about this stuff. And listen, it comes through
from the second I met you, I expected actually, if I’m being honest, I expected this kind of asshole
that you see in the media who’s just like “Screw these anti-vaxxers “and this is how I do it.” The first thing you said to me was “I feel really, really bad
for parents of children “with autism because it’s so hard.” And that to me is, I think, what a lot of the public misses that doesn’t understand what you’re doing. I think it’s the same when you talk about pharmaceutical industry. People like to vilify
pharmaceuticals, and I do too. I like to vilify the marketing guys. I like to vilify the business guys. I like to vilify the fact
that it’s very expensive, and it shouldn’t be and so on. But the people on the front lines who are doing the research working with the pharmaceutical
companies are heroes. Plain and simple. And every time I’ve talked for them, I’ve said “You know what, you guys, “You know what you’re doing. “Every day you’re trying
to help human beings. “You’re trying relieve human suffering, “and this is the goal.” Now the question is how
do we better communicate what we’re doing to the public
when you have celebrities who are very good at communicating, who maybe even have good intentions. Like I’m not sure Jenny McCarthy
had evil intent doing this. I mean, Wakefield I worry about, I feel like there’s something going on whether it’s like a
narcissism or some ego thing, and I think you might have mentioned some things in the book, some speculation about
what you might think. But we can’t know because we can’t know
another person’s mind. But in the book, I think the
main premise of the book is here’s a manual for how we
can be better at communicating without getting so emotional but without ignoring emotion
because it’s important. You know when those guys
are banging on the door, I started getting emotional. I started saying you
know what, let us speak. This is your chance to talk to people and why would you shout somebody down. It means that you’re
so emotional yourself, you’re suffering so much. Think about the kind of
suffering that that guy has. If you really feel what he feels, he is so angry because he
thinks we’re harming children. So I can actually have a
kind of cognitive empathy for that and understand that, but the question is then
how do we transcend that and actually better
connect with these folks. I think the book is very good at that but I wanna hear what your thought is. – I think you do the best you can. I mean when I speak to
parents which is almost daily, they call me on the phone, I try an understand what
it is that concerns them about vaccines and then try and explain how there are studies that
sort of address that concern and to do it in a
compassionate and passionate and empathetic way. You do the best you can
realizing that there are people who will see you as evil. I mean there were a few parents actually that were anti-vaccine
parents a couple nights ago at that Bryn Mawr library. It’s easier for me I guess
to feel compassionate for people who aren’t screaming at me and telling me I’m an evil person. You just lose it. Or the person who puts
a camera in our face and doesn’t tell you they’re filming you. That’s upsetting because it’s not fair. I think we are going to
know much more about science and medicine a hundred years
from now than we know now. There’s no doubt about the fact
that we have much to learn. But there are things that we do know. Specific germs cause specific diseases. We can prevent those diseases. I think raising the question, you can argue the best case scenario Andrew Wakefield raised the hypothesis does the MMR vaccine cause autism. That’s an answerable question and it’s been answered
again and again and again in 17 studies and seven countries on three different continents involving hundreds of thousands of children and costing tens of billions of dollars. The public health and academic community responded to that concern. What upsets me is when
people don’t realize that when they say it’s just all a
conspiracy to hurt children. – So Paul, I think what it is there and this has been my
experience with this is that we have this paradigm on the show, you’ve probably heard of it,
the elephant and the rider. So the elephant is our unconscious
limbic emotional system. It’s pre-wired. Some of it’s genetic,
some of its conditioning, some of it’s education, some of it’s religion,
politics, et cetera. And then we have this little rider, our cortex on top riding
on top of the elephant and that’s the one that’s
supposed to do science and be rational and be
persuasive and use words. Use your words. You’re talking to the rider
when the elephant’s stomping. I think the issue with some
of the anti-vaccine sentiment, the reason it’s so intractable is that their elephants really innately distrust government, industry, et cetera. And that’s for whatever reasons they’re conditioned to feel that way and there is an element of like “Whose fault is this now that
this has happened to my child? “I need something to peg this on.” And that’s their elephant. So when you present data, “Well look here’s all the data
that says it’s not vaccines.” they move the goal post or they confirm their bias
with data that is not well done and that says well maybe, maybe, maybe. Any little thing they’ll go through it. Confirmation bias. All the logical flaws we talk about. Now they are human beings. We expect them to do that. How do we combat it though? Because we know from the data because we can be a little bit
more dispassionate about it, and they’ll accuse you. They’ll say well you’re a shill for pharma and you’re getting paid for it so how can you be dispassionate? Well there are millions of pediatricians, thousands of pediatricians
around the country who are not getting paid by pharma, who lose money on vaccines
who believe so strongly in it because they’ve looked at the same data. This is a good chance for
me to tell my quick story. Again, because this
show’s all about me, Paul, even though I have Paul Offit. Let me tell you all about me, Paul. So 2009, I’m just about to
launch ZDoggMD Industries. it’s as a cry for help from my burnout. I’m making videos to try to draw attention to the suffering we have
in healthcare as caregivers and my neighbor, we have a
fence that’s about this tall. It’s in California. He comes over. He’s a financial planner. Very, very intelligent guy. His wife’s very intelligent. Lovely kids. He came up to me and said “You know, I know you’re
about to have a baby.” Actually this might have been 2007. But “You’re about to have a baby. “Are you gonna vaccinate the child “’cause I heard all this
stuff that the vaccines now, “MMR in particular, is
associated with autism?” And I said “I hadn’t heard that actually “because it’s just not
something that ever came up “in my practice ’cause
I take care of adults.” And I graduated med school in ’99, just when Wakefield’s paper was coming out and I didn’t see it. So immediately I was like “Well that sounds plausible “because there’s been all these
people talking about autism “and it seems like it would
cause an immune response “and maybe adjuvant or
aluminum or mercury.” And I get online and I
go down the rabbit hole. But because I’m a doctor, because I’ve been trained in immunology, and I’m trained in the scientific method, I could go through it and
sort through the garbage and get to the truth. And some of it is going to make sure I know credible sources, understanding the methodology and I was able to answer
the question which was “Nope they’ve shown it’s not the case.” Whew, because I don’t want my kid getting measles, mumps or rubella because as a kid, my
parents saw that stuff ‘ cause they’re from India and I have this vaccination
scar from small pox. This is one of the great public
health triumphs of our era. So that was how I came to it, but how does someone without those tools come to that decision? Do they have to rely on
Paul Offit to write a book? How do we do this? – I think it’s fair to be
skeptical about anything you put into your body including vaccines. It’s easy to see where this comes from. We ask children and ask
parents in this country to vaccinate their children
in the first few years of life with vaccines to prevent
14 different diseases, which can be as many as 26 inoculations during those first few years of life which could be as many
as five shots at one time to prevent diseases most people don’t see using biological fluids most
people don’t understand. I think it’s perfectly easy
to understand how we got here. You didn’t have to convince
my parents to be vaccinated. They were children of the ’20s and ’30s. They saw diphtheria as
a killer of teenagers. They saw polio as a crippler
of young people, young adults. You didn’t have to convince me. I was a child of the ’50s and ’60s so I had measles, I had mumps, I had rubella, I had varicella. I knew what all those diseases felt like, but my children are in their 20’s. They don’t see these diseases now. They didn’t grow up with these diseases. For them, it’s a matter of faith. So I think it’s fair to be skeptical. That’s okay. So now you’re just, you wanna be reassured that
this is still necessary, that all these vaccines
are still necessary and so then how do you
get that information. This is the hard part
because if for example, I’ll have somebody who’ll call me up and say “Look I’ve done my research on “the chicken pox vaccine and
I’ve decided not to get it.” But what do they really mean by research? What they really mean is
that they’ve looked online and read people’s opinions
about the varicella vaccine. What you really should
do if you want to have an informed opinion about
the varicella vaccine, read the roughly 300 articles that have been published on
the varicella vaccine which would require an
expertise in micro-biology, virology, and epidemiology, statistics, which most people don’t have and frankly, most doctors don’t have. – [Z] Yeah, that’s true. – So what do they do? They rely on those advisory groups that at least collectively
have that expertise, collectively have read those articles, and make recommendations which they think is the best service of the
children in this country, like the Advisory Committee
for Immunization Practices and the CDC or the Committee of infectious Disease for the American Academy of Pediatrics and those groups have served us well. But sell that message in the 21st century, trust us we’re experts, we
know what’s good for you, that doesn’t work. So I think you have to give
people, as best you can, the information they
need to try and help them sort through this stuff, sort through what they’re
reading on the internet. But at the very least, it seems to me that if you’re
looking on the internet, I can tell the difference between the sort of good sites and bad. First of all, the good sites generally aren’t selling things
like cures for autism. – Like Deepak Chopra’s weird
like radio camera thing for meditation, right? – [Paul] Something that’ll
rearrange the ions in your brain and make your autism go away. – Right, right. – This would be a clue. – So trying to sell you
something but then they’ll say “Well but you’re trying to sell
me a RotaTeq vaccine, Paul, “so what’s the difference?” What would you say to that? – Well, first of all, I don’t sell it. Merck sells it. I don’t make a penny off of
the sale of the RotaTeq vaccine so we’re good. I have not been compensated
in any way for that vaccine for the last 10 years so I’m out. – But early on you
probably got licensing fees or inventors fees? – I’m the intellectual property of Children’s Hospital Philadelphia. They own me, therefore they
do the deal with Merck, therefore they get the money from Merck, and then I’m part of their patent policy so I get a certain
percentage of that money. If you want to know
what the percentage is, it’s the three inventors, me, Stan Plotkin, and
Fred Clark split 10%. The hospital gets 90%. We split 10%. – It’s the typical devil’s
deal you make with academics. – The motivation for doing the
work on the rotavirus vaccine and the reward from doing the
work on the rotavirus vaccine were never financial. It was great. I’m happy that things are a
little easier for my family but that certainly wasn’t
the reason to do it. Because who does it for that reason? Who goes into science thinking “God, if I could just figure out “which of these two viral surface proteins “evoke neutralizing
antibodies, I could be rich.” I don’t think people think that. They shouldn’t because
they would be idiots. – They would be idiots. There are much easier ways to get rich. Really, really. A blockbuster statin would
make a lot, much more money. – Launder money for Russian oligarchs. – I’ve done that. It’s very lucrative. That’s how we paid for all this
opulence you see right here. So that gets me to the point, so people who do things for money, Dr. Oz, how do you feel about these guys? The Ozs, the Chopras,
the Dr. Phils, et cetera. In your book, you mention
them in passing saying when they say something that’s
kooky people tend to listen, when we say stuff everything’s
met with questions. – I think Dr. Oz does say some good things about your health, so I’m not trying to, and he certainly is a mainstream doctor. I mean he’s a cardiovascular
surgeon at Columbia. He’s a full professor in the division of cardiovascular surgery. I mean he puts people
on heart lung machines and holds their hearts in
his hands and fixes them so he certainly buys
into mainstream medicine. I think what they do and this
is the part that bothers me, I think that medicine is uncertain. It is. We are gonna know more in
the future than we know now. We only know so much of the puzzle when we’re asked to make a decision. I think if you ask people “Are we gonna know more about your health “a hundred years from now,” everybody’ll say yes, but when it comes to their
disease they wanna believe you know everything you
need to know right now, even though you don’t. I think what Chopra does and what Oz does and what Andrew Wakefield
does is they’re gurus. They’re sort of all knowing. It’s what I call in the book sort of the Bones McCoy seduction. The chief medical officer
of the USS Enterprise had his tricorder, he’d just scan you up and down, and he looked and that’s what you had. There’s something very
reassuring about that. I think that’s what makes
Andrew Wakefield so reassuring. He knows that this is true. He knows the MMR vaccine causes autism, even though study after study
has shown that it doesn’t. That’s reassuring in some ways. – I get nervous anytime someone says they know what the problem is. It doesn’t matter who it is,
even if I agree with them, like if Bob Lustig says sugar is a toxin and he’s absolutely certain about it then I have sit back and go
“Could it maybe not be a toxin?” You have to question these
things, even if they’re right. I think that’s the main thing. Someone like Chopra, like
he’s from a spiritual side. Sure let him do his thing but when he starts talking
about cortisol levels and things like that. He says it, again, with a certainty that then it fools us actually because we’re looking, as much as we hate
authority in this space, we want authority. What I found is people wanna
know what you do for your kids so what I do, just the other
day I took my two kids, 10 and seven, to Target
and we got flu shots. What lit the fire under
me was the story of the first flu death in a
child in Florida last week. We went. I videotaped it. I put it out. It got a million plus views. Probably 30% of them were
from rabid anti-vaccine people who were just furious that
it was poisoning my children but the rest of people were like “Oh I didn’t realize it was so urgent, “I’m gonna go get it done.” And we know the flue
vaccine isn’t as effective as a lot of other vaccines. We know this. We’ll admit it right up. Even if it’s 30% effective, it’s 30% effective that you didn’t have and the flu can be fatal, if not just for you then for
those who are vulnerable. So it’s a mix of selfishness and altruism when you get a vaccine. You don’t wanna get sick, but you also don’t wanna make others sick. You wanna do your part
for community immunity because we need a certain critical level. I think that’s starting to erode now when we’re questioning experts and the death of expertise
and that kind of thing. What I like about your book
is you kind of go through it and “Here are all the mistakes I made, “Paul Offit made, when
I started doing this. “I would go on these shows “and would give a list of
here are all the indications.” Just shoot it all at the rider and not motivate the elephant. Not be simple. Not come from a place
of love and compassion. And then you learned, and it’s nice to see the
progress on how that played out. Do you feel that in your own career? – Sure, I mean I think yeah. Actually, for me the
passion I guess in all this is that we all have our biases. Mine is that I work in a hospital so there’s not a year that goes by at Children’s Hospital
Philadelphia where we don’t see a child die of a
vaccine-preventable disease. Die from a vaccine preventable disease. – [Z] You’re still seeing it? – Sure and flu being the most. During the pandemic here,
we had about five deaths. But you know, pneumococcus, pertussis or whooping cough occasionally. And invariably it’s because a parent made a choice not to vaccinate or in the case of pertussis
not to vaccinate themselves when they were pregnant. And so why did they make that choice? They made that choice because they were persuaded
by bad information that caused them to make a bad decision that ultimately hurt their child and I think that’s what
I always have in my mind. It’s always that story
that I have in my mind. I’ll tell you, just within
the past couple years there was a child who
came into our hospital whose parents had recently
converted to Muslim. They had vaccinated
their two older children. They decided not to vaccinate this child. – [Z] Religious exemption?
– Not that there’s anything in the Muslim religion that says don’t get vaccinated but
this was their decision. So we saw that child in our clinic at two, four, and six months of age and at least, tacitly agreed because there is a religious
exemption to vaccination in the state of Pennsylvania. At 11 months of age, the child was infected with
a strain of pneumococcus that was contained in the vaccine, that would have been
prevented by the vaccine, had meningitis, inflammation in the lining
of the brain and spinal cord causing the brain to press
down on the brain stem which is to say herniated. We intubated him and saved his life but he will never see or
walk or speak or hear again. This is a perfectly normal child who could have lived to be 70 or 80 and been a happy productive
member of society who was felled by this awful decision. So when you hear people give
bad information out there, you always have these images in your mind and I think that’s what
makes it so passionate and so difficult for me. I think that’s why sometimes I get angry when I get on these shows and people are giving bad information because I have those images in my mind because I work in a hospital. – That makes perfect sense. Yeah, that makes perfect sense. I don’t think you’d be a human being if you didn’t get angry about it. I think it both helps us and hurts us when we get emotional about this stuff because people see that we’re human beings and that we feel strongly about it. I think this idea of what
would you do for your loved one is actually more powerful
than we accept in medicine. I think there’s a stigma
against telling patient “This is what I do for my mom or my kid. “This is what I did for my dad.” Especially at end of life,
particularly with kids and so I’ve tried to make
a thing in this show to say what’s good for the goose
is good for the gander. Heres me getting my shots. Here’s my kids. When my oldest gets HPV shots, she’s 10, she’s gonna get it at 11, we’re gonna livestream the whole
series and talk about that. ‘Cause that’s on of those, that’s a great one where
people really don’t realize that you can prevent cancer, not just of the cervix but
potentially of other areas. We’ve done several shows on it. – Yeah, I mean one-third of
the cancers caused by HPV occur in boys and men. – Boys and men. And the rest occur in
the band of Boyz II Men which is an amazing R&B
group out of Philly. Do you see what I did there people? This is why I’m ZDoggMD
and you’re not, world. So I do have some questions because we’re about half an hour in. we’ve got 1600 people watching live. There’s a million comments. Angry emojis, happy emojis, love emojis. This is the tribe. I wanna help them be able to talk about this more effectively. I wanna influence moms
and dads on the fence, and I don’t want to attack anti-vaxxers and I don’t want to say ad hominem them ’cause I’m good at that,
I do that really well. That’s one of my things, Paul, is like you get to try to be professional. I just get to be a dick,
and it feels really good but then when I go to bed I
think am I helping things? I’m rallying our troops. Maybe I’m swaying someone on the fence, but I’m just entrenching
their elephants in hating me and hating science and hating what we do. So maybe there’s a better
way that I need to explore and I need to say maybe I’m wrong on this. It feels good but it’s probably wrong. Let me ask some questions ’cause I think I wanna
get at some of the science ’cause you’re the expert on this, whatever the anti-vaxxers say. The mercury thing, why is it bullshit? – So the ethylmercury is a
preservative that’s contained still in some multi dose
vials of influenza vaccine. When you put a vaccine
into a multi dose vial, you have like 10 doses per vial, the rubber stopper gets
violated again and again, and even though you keep the
vaccine in the refrigerator, four degrees centigrade, bacteria
and fungi can still grow. So what happened when you
gave dose eight, nine, or ten, 70, 80 years ago is that
you would inject children inadvertently with skin
bacteria like staph, strep which would cause local
cellulitis, local abscess or worse, bacterial sepsis and death. So you need to have some preservative if you’re going to have a multi dose vial. Hence, ethylmercury which
is a bacteria-static agent meaning it decreases the ability of bacteria and fungi actually to reproduce. – [Z] Because it gives them autism. Is that right?
(both laugh) – So ethylmercury was contained
in a number of vaccines, so as we started to give
more and more vaccines and were giving more
and more ethylmercury, it sort of raised,
reasonably, raised concerns. Are we doing more harm than good? What we know now and
frankly we knew then is that if you live on the Earth’s surface which pretty much everybody does, you are going to be exposed to mercury. Mercury is part of the Earth’s crust. It’s inorganic mercury. As it comes to the surface, it’s get taken up by bacteria
on the surface of the seas or on the surface of
the soil and methylated so now it’s not inorganic mercury, it’s organic mercury. It’s methylmercury. – Oh, so it’s organic
bro, so it’s all good. Is that what you’re telling me? I could sell it at a Whole Foods in the non-GMO organic mercury section. – I don’t even know what
organic means anymore. It used to mean carbon-containing. – [Z] Right. – So in any case now the
mercury cross cells and do harm, and certainly methylmercury can do harm. You know mercury at high levels, methyl mercury at high levels can be toxic to the central nervous
system, to the brain. And we see disasters, the
Minamata Bay disaster, the Iraqi fumigating rain disaster, are examples of how high levels
of mercury can cause harm. So the question reasonably
is can these much, much lower levels of ethyl mercury
in vaccines cause harm? Assuming you live on this planet, and you drink anything made
from water on this planet, including breast milk or infant formula, you are exposed to far greater
quantities of methylmercury than you are ever going to get from ethylmercury in vaccines. And if you look at children are inoculated with ethylmercury contained in vaccines, you can’t tell that there’s an increase in the level in their bloodstream of mercury because we all have
mercury in our bloodstream. If you live on this planet, you’re gonna have mercury
in your bloodstream. I’ve had to testify in front
of congressional hearings where a congressman will say things like “When it comes to mercury
I have zero tolerance.” Well if you have zero tolerance, move to another planet
because on this planet there’s mercury. – Ironically move to Mercury where there’s less mercury on the surface. No, and that’s exactly it. So of course it’s been
taken out of most vaccines. Actually at great cost, because now you can’t
have a multi dose vaccine. You have to have individuals
and it costs a lot more money. So you’ve charged a little more to do that but they’ve done it just out
of pure public relations. Really. – Yeah, I think public Health Service made the decision to do this. I think mostly because their
idea at the time was that all theoretical risks
should be communicated. I’m not sure why that was the decision. And so we spent tens of millions, probably hundreds of
millions of dollars really now moving from multi dose
vials to single dose vials. About 50% of the cost of a vaccine is actually in its packaging. So we spent a lot of money and
didn’t make vaccines safer. One of the things, if you look back at what they said at the Public Health Services at the time, they said “All the evidence today does “is suggest a notion that
mercury level in vaccines “is unsafe but to make
safe vaccines even safer.” Well if it didn’t make it unsafe, taking it out never made it safer. It just made it perceived to
be safer even though it wasn’t. It was not us at our best. – Yeah, yeah. So also speaking of that then, you’re talking about
additives and unsafe things in stuff that you consume, the supplement industry. You’ve written a book on that. So this is another spectrum
of the science, right? In supplements you have
no idea what’s in them. They’re not FDA regulated and yet, people would sooner
take a ton of supplements than vaccinate their child. Explain the sort of thinking there. – Yeah it’s a sort of magical thinking. It’s the notion that when you, first of all the supplement, as you say, the dietary supplement
industry is not regulated by the Food and Drug Administration. Not in any effective way because they don’t have
the manpower to do it so therefore you don’t know
that what’s on that level is actually what’s on that bottle. You don’t know whether it’s made under good manufacturing practices. So we’ve dealt with that at our hospital, I’m the head of therapeutic
centers committee, so we deal with this all time. What do we do? The joint commission of
hospital accreditation said if you’re going to give
this you have to record it and you have to store it
and you have to give it. So we did that initially but then we realized somebody wants to give their child selenium
40 micrograms a day, so we would write the order
out and we would give it. First of all, we didn’t
know it was 40 micrograms. We didn’t even know if it was selenium because we don’t know. We feel we were participating ,frankly, in a fraudulent industry so we stopped. We stopped doing that, and now you have to sign a form that we’re not going to give it. If you want to give it, you can, but realize we don’t know what’s in it. It may interfere with other drugs you’re getting in this hospital. But you’re right. I think people walk into the store and they think this is
somehow much more natural. This is being made by elves and old hippies on flowering meadow sides and this is only gonna do good. (Z makes sucking noise) It can’t possibly do harm. – Right. – Which is true of nothing. If something has a positive effect, it can have a negative effect. That’s always true. But somehow this industry
manages to skirt that. It is remarkable to me that they’ve been so successful at it. – And it’s a great
counter-example to vaccinations. Here we are, studying it, purifying it, 12,000 degrees of safety
measures, studies, et cetera. – Including the vaccine safety data line. Once a vaccine is made
and is put out there, there is a linked computerized
medical record system so that you know who’s gotten
a vaccine and who hasn’t. And if there’s anything that shows up, it’ll show up quickly. It’s too bad this doesn’t
exist on the drug side. I think if this existed on the
drug side you would have seen Vioxx as a rare cause of
heart attacks much quicker. – Earlier than Topol pointed it out, yeah. – [Paul] Eric Topal, right? – Yeah, Eric’s my homie by the way. I like to namedrop, Paul (Paul laughs) ‘Cause like you’re a famous dude. I’m like “Paul, you know,
me and Eric were chillin’ “the other day, just talking about Vioxx.” So yeah, supplements,
but then related to that, what’s wrong with our
media why is our media not portraying science in a way
that is helpful to the public. Because in the book you
talk about that quite a bit. Everything from false balance to the idea that they like click-bait titles. What’s going on with the media? – I think for the most part the media doesn’t portray science at all. I think it’s sort of dropped out. CNN has sort of dropped it’s science and technology sections. The Boston Globe which is at the heart in many ways of the biotech industry has dropped it’s science. It’s now like a health section. I think generally it’s not portrayed, but the conflict of interest if you will is that the goal is to sell advertising. You’re gonna sell advertising
if you’re interesting. It’s much more interesting
if it’s controversial and it’s a man bites dog story. – Mm. Yeah, and it’s frustrating because I feel like
here we have a platform. Yeah, there’s 1.6
thousand people watching. This will get a ton of
views when it’s done. These are engaged people who
can comment in real time, can ask us questions. Way more elderly die
from not being vaccinated and being exposed to influenza than from vaccine caused deaths
says Jenna Smith-Sanders. So people can leave their feelings. In the media I feel like the
physicians’ voices are glossy and they’re soundbited and maybe that’s what the public needs, but I don’t think so. I think the public wants to hear doctors talking about this stuff honestly. – That’s why what you do is so important. I think because you’re
a great communicator, but it’s so rare. Think about how rare it is. If there are doctors who do
the kinds of things you do, we’re not trained to do it. We’re generally not good at it. We’re not used to it because the scientific method really doesn’t allow you to prove never, we tend to sound like we’re waffling or worse covering something up. It just doesn’t come off well. – You know it’s funny ’cause in the old days
I would have thought “Well you’re just blowing
smoke up my ass, Paul.” But no, you’re absolutely effin’ right. Doctors are the worst, and every time I get one on my show I fear that the show’s gonna be a disaster because they are, they’ll pull back. They’re very reserved. They’re worried about their
professional appearance. They’re worried about
saying the wrong thing. They’re worried about taking
too much risk in what they say, and it comes off as
they’re hiding something or they’re waffling or
they’re not being transparent. My job, which is hard, is
to try to pull them out. With you, see it’s interesting, because even you’re an introvert
and you’re a scientist, you’ve done this enough now
that you give of yourself truth that comes out of you. And whether you disagree with it or not, you’re an anti-vaxxer,
you’re gonna disagree. But it is authentically
you and you can tell. You’re not holding anything back. You’re not prevaricating. That’s a fancy way of saying lying. It’s an SAT word. I looked it up. I think we need more Paul Offits in the world communicating science. Bill Nye is a great example. – [Paul] Yeah, he’s great. – Great science communicator. – [Paul] Neil Degrasse-Tyson
I think is great. – Ah, he’s amazing. But you gave a great example in the book of a Neil Degrasse-Tyson
eff up where it was, – [Paul] Titanic. – Titanic came out and he puts out a tweet or some public statement like “You know the stars in the North Atlantic don’t look anything like
that that time of year “when they were looking up.” – [Paul] In 1912. – In 1912 because he’s got like some, he’s like (chirps) oh no, no, no. Orion would have been here. And people ripped him a new one. They’re like listen “Poindexter, it’s a fricking
movie, don’t nerd out.” They don’t realize that scientists are passionate about truth. – [Paul] That’s right. – And he couldn’t hide
it, and he had to say it. Do you think that was a mistake or do you think it just shows? – No, no, I think that’s him. – [Z] That’s him.
– He said “Wait a second. “Whoa, whoa, hold it.” It’s probably of the 400
million people that saw that movie he’s the only person
who said that, but still. – Stood up in the theater. You know, I have a funny Carl Sagan story. So I saw Carl Sagan at
Fresno State university. I grew up in Clovis, California. Central valley of California. In high school, I was
a big nerd of course. Everything. Listening to Rush, playing
Dungeons and Dragons, and Carl Sagan comes to town. My buddy gets me tickets. My buddy is the that wears
the Iron Maiden t-shirt and is like Yeah! But he’s a super nerd, so we go see Carl Sagan
and I’m just waiting. I’m sitting in the back. I’m waiting, I’m waiting, I’m waiting. He says “Billions and billions”
which is his catchphrase. I stand up and I’m like
“Whoa, billions and billions.” I start clapping. Dead silence in the rest of the audience. All them scientists, nerds. I’m just like “Hey, eh.” But see if the public got
as excited about science as the scientist actually internally do, I think we wouldn’t have climate denial. We wouldn’t have vaccine science denial. We wouldn’t have the mess that we’re in. – There’s a movie on that, a
new movie called Science Fair I don’t know if you’ve seen it yet. – No, I haven’t. – It just came out but it’s about these high school students who are competing for science prizes. They do exactly what you say. They’re “Whoa, whoa.” They’re screaming for each other and the ones that have won it’s just like they’ve won the Nobel prize. They’re very emotional so
something happens I guess between that exciting
time when you’re younger to when you get older that you
sort of repress some of that. But it’s there. I’m telling you it’s there. It’s just a matter of getting it out. (Z laughs) – Let me ask you this,
speaking of communication, does shame work? Is shaming somebody for not vaccinating, is that an effective strategy? – No, I don’t think so. I think you have to understand
that it’s really hard to watch your child get
so many shots at once. It doesn’t make sense. Here your child’s two months old and they’re getting five shots. And for what, polio? Is there still polio in this country? Diphtheria? How many cases of diphtheria is there? Tetanus? I mean it’s really hard to watch that. I get it. I get how you’re sort of put off by that, but a choice not to get a vaccine
is not a risk-free choice. I mean it’s not as risky of a
choice as it was 50 years ago, but it’s still a risky choice. You’re still playing at some level a game of Russian roulette, and you just have to
find a way to say that. You know our job as parents
is to put your child in the safest position possible. These are well-tested products. This is based on a mountain of evidence. Feel comfortable with this. Let’s find a way you can
feel comfortable with this. But I get the push back. I think we do need to reexplain ourselves. You didn’t have to explain
vaccines to my parents. You didn’t have to explain vaccines to me. I had most of these diseases. I didn’t have polio, but I was born clubbed feet actually and was in a polio ward following surgery when I was five years old. So I certainly remember
what polio looks like. I have a friend who suffered polio who’s still having post-polio syndrome, so I see all that. But today, we do need to step
back and reexplain ourselves a little more because
it’s not as compelling. The diseases aren’t quite
as compelling as they were. – Yeah, interesting story around that. So I speak of shame and our platform. There’s nurse in Texas, you
probably heard this story. She was on a Facebook anti-vaccine group and had written about a
patient who was there, violated HIPAA about seeing measles. What I thought was interesting, and I did a show about
this where I said it was inexcusable to have a health
practitioner violating HIPAA but then also being able to
see measles in an ICU setting, see the child suffering and
still say I will not vaccinate. Because again, the science is there and then the emotion is there. What was interesting though,
Paul, is in her actual post she said “You know guys,
this is really bad. “Like this is awful. “What I see here, this is
much worse than I thought “and it really had me shook. “But I’m not changing
my anti-vaccine stance “but I’m just saying.” And I feel like that was
very powerful actually. – But it’s interesting, isn’t it? That this surprised her at some level. Like whoa, this is really bad. When Jenny McCarthy says “I’ll take the fricking
measles every time” as if it’s the choice between
getting a measles vaccine and risking autism and getting measles, which she sees as benign, it tells you that not only
have we largely eliminated the measles from the United States, we’ve eliminated the memory of measles. I mean measles makes you sick. 50% of people who have
measles actually have abnormal chest x-rays. They may not have clinical pneumonia but they have abnormal chest x-rays. I can tell whether somebody
has measles in 30 seconds based on how sick they are. Then they call people like me down to the emergency department when kids come in with fever and rash because I saw so much measles in training. – How comfortable are you with
your own immunity and titers that hang around measles kids? – I had measles. – [Z] Oh, you had it? – Yes, I’m of an age. I was born before 1957. – Oh got it. So you cheated and got
measles so you’re saying, okay so I’m just gonna go on record and say Paul Offit says have
a measles party everyone. That’s how you get natural immunity. What’s wrong with natural immunity? Chicken pox party, what’s wrong with that? – Right, so the goal of
vaccines is to induce immunity that’s acquired after a natural infection without having to pay the
price of natural infection. So you could reasonably ask this question. Let’s take the measles as an example. Isn’t it true, I mean I was
naturally infected with measles, isn’t it true that after
being naturally infected with measles I probably
have higher frequencies of memory immune cells B- and T-cells than does someone who was vaccinated? Yes, I do, that’s true. – So you have a bigger
antigen response, yeah. – The virus reproduced itself
thousands of times in me, not the 10 or 20 times it
is when you get the vaccine, so I have a much greater
immune response, it’s true. So say why not? Well then why not have
natural measles parties? Because if you’re going
to get a better immunity. That’s not the right question. The right question is is
vaccination good enough? Yes, it’s good enough. We eliminated measles
from the United States by the year 2000. The only reason measles has come back is because now enough people
are choosing not to get it. So you wanna make sure
you get immunity that is close enough to natural
infection to prevent the disease, which we did with the measles vaccine, without having to pay the
price of natural infection. Chicken pox parties? Really? I mean chicken pox can kill you and did. – [Z] I’ve seen it, yeah. – So that’s the downside
of a chicken pox party. – Right, you’re talking about what? Meningitis, pneumonia, what are some complications
of chicken pox? – The ones that got most
kids into the hospital which would be about
10,000 admitted a year before the chicken pox
vaccine which was in ’95, is they would get skin infections because the blisters would burst. The big one was necrotizing fasciitis which can cause loss of limbs. – Now imagine, so this was 1995 even, that recent that chicken pox
was causing 10,000 admissions. – [Paul] That’s right, in a year. And about a hundred deaths. – And a hundred deaths. – Most in previously healthy people. – That’s the thing. These aren’t like immune
compromised children. So again, these are tremendous advances. HPV vaccine. What do you say to parents who, and this is one of the frustrating things that triggers me a little bit, and again, I should be
less emotional about it but I’m not that guy. I’m not a great scientist. I’m more of a emotional communicator and I love medicine and I
love people and there’s love but it’s hard for me to
get rational sometimes. HPV, we have nurses in the audience. We have very educated people who say there’s not enough data, it causes terrible side-effects. There’s these girls in wheelchairs now, and I believe in vaccines but
I don’t believe in this one. What do you say to that? – First of all, it is
the most studied vaccine to post last year. It’s been formally studied
in more than a million people so that’s number one. Number two is if you had
to ask the question of which vaccine preventable
disease kills the most people, the answer is flu. Last year in the United States, we had 80,000 deaths from influenza and almost 200 in children. Most previously healthy. What’s number two? HPV. HPV, the current vaccine,
the HPV 9 vaccine, GARDASIL 9 will prevent 29,000
cases of cancer every year and 5,000 deaths a year. That 5,000 deaths is more than all other vaccine preventable diseases with the exception of flu combined. (Paul coughs) Sorry. – No, no, that’s okay. Take a break, man. You’ve been talking a lot. You just got off a plane. I’m gonna grab some comments
here while you’re doing that. What again was the death rate with measles before the
vaccine, Brandon Leo says. – So before the vaccine there about three to four million cases a year, U.S., 48,000 hospitalizations, 500 deaths. – 500 deaths a year of children. Think about that. – [Paul] Primarily children. – That’s a life that doesn’t happen. You talk about quality
adjusted life years. When a child dies, it is 80 years of life, quality of life, weddings, that are lost. It’s not like we’re talking about a 75-year-old person
getting a SHINGRIX vaccine and not getting shingles
which is still important because it can be debilitating. But it’s a very different thing. Let me see here. Bonnie says bless you and your integrity. – My wife’s name’s Bonnie. (Z gasps) – Maybe it’s the same Bonnie. No, it’s not Bonnie Offit thought. (Paul laughs) It’s Bonnie Headon (laughs). I would stack it with family too. – I don’t think she knows this is live. I’m not sure she knows it’s on now. – Oh yeah, that’s probably for the best ’cause the live comments are, theses are actually really
good comments, Paul. Like “Thank you Dr. Paul Offit. “So sorry to hear about your
experience in a polio ward “and having club foot. “Thank you for sharing, Kelly.” This is the thing, Kelly, like I think one thing we don’t do well as doctors is humanize ourselves. I think a lot of times
we’re supposed to be the super human detached agents, brains in vats that say
vaccines are safe and effective. And people go I don’t resonate with that. ’cause that’s not how
we’re tribal creatures. We don’t have somebody in the tribe who’s a Poindexter who goes
“Well according to my data.” No one’s going to believe that. That’s why I really like, and
gotta be full disclosure here, Paul did not ask me to
talk about this book. He sent it to me as a
courtesy so could read it, and I loved it. I loved it so much that I think, and here’s my honest feedback, I think that it’s great for lay people, but I think that it’s even
better for medical people. Because medical people
can go through and they go “God I’m gonna have to
deal with these questions. “I get so triggered. “How do I deal with it?” Here’s a great way to think about it. And it also really, I think
it puts into place how celebrities are damaging our
understanding of science. It’s really damaging our public health. They may not be intentionally doing it. People like Robert F. Kennedy, Junior. Like this guy’s a lawyer. What is he talking about vaccines for? – He has a world mercury project. I think he’s trying to drum up business for a class action lawsuit, to be perfectly honest with you. He is of council to the law
firm of Morgan and Morgan, which is a big class action litigator. Maybe that’s it.
– [Z] He’s wagging the dog. – I don’t know. I don’t get it. It’s fair to ask the question. I mean mercury is never gonna sound good. It’s not like there’s a national center for the appreciation of heavy metals standing up in defense of mercury. – Sorry, sorry. You’re absolutely wrong. Heavy metal rocks and
Freddie Mercury is the shit. Alright? Number next, Paul? (both laugh) – Yeah, so again, it’s
fair to ask the question. I mean “Wait you’re injecting
children with mercury, what?” So fair enough and it has been
answered now in seven studies and it’s exactly what you
would expect given that we’re exposed to a form of mercury. There’s more mercury in this than you’re gonna get in vaccines. Not in that. – Okay, good, good. Mine’s clean. ’cause you backwash because
you’re a mercury factory, Paul. Because you worked with
vaccines for so long, you’re tainted. So Robert? – So the studies have been done, so why isn’t he convinced by that study? It’s okay to be skeptical. It’s just when you cross
the line into cynical, that’s when you lose me. – You said that in the book. I thought it was great. Skepticism is important. It’s part of the scientific process. – Right. Exactly, skepticism is a good thing. I’m here actually for the
Center for Skeptical Inquiry. It’s a group of skeptics,
like Richard Dawkins, and Steven Pinker, and Steven Novella. Stephen Fry. – Oh man, I wanna crash that party. How come I never get invited? – Come on, come on over. – I’m so skeptical I’m
too skeptical to show up. I’m like I dunno about these guys man. So skepticism is good,
but cynicism is bad. This idea that everybody
is out to hurt us, there’s a big conspiracy. Look money is a big driver in healthcare. We talk about it on this show
trying to build Health 3.0. You’re in the academic silo,
Paul, so you see part of it. But the true dysfunction out
in the community is so hurtful that I think until physicians are able and front line healthcare
staff are able to overcome their moral injury of
practicing in a system where they feel like they’re
causing harm deep down, it’s gonna be hard for them
to advocate and find the time to go on the news and
talk about these things. Be better communicators. They’re hurting themselves. Inside they’re hurting. So this is a real problem. They call it burnout, it’s moral injury. I think it hurts even
more when now our patients question everything about
us in a cynical way. So skeptical is fine. I love it when patients
question what I’m doing ’cause I feel like then here’s
a chance for me to explain and make sure they know my thinking because that’s shared decision making. As opposed to “I don’t trust you man, “you’re probably paid
off by big pharma bro.” – So you’ve lost. – [Z] You’ve lost, yeah. – You’ve lost, there’s nothing you can say because you’re a part of the conspiracy. – [Z] That’s right, the chem trails. – So you bail. I bail on those. I say “Is there anything I can say “that will help you with this” and if the answer’s no then
why have the discussion. There was a person who
sort of confronted me at this meeting a couple days ago. She asked a question about aluminum so I was trying to explain
about how aluminum works, how aluminum is the most abundant
light metal on the planet, and we’re exposed to
aluminum ina variety of ways. So here’s how if you’re
injected with aluminum versus if you ingest aluminum. And she just wouldn’t believe me and after a while, I just said “Why are you asking me questions “if you’re not gonna
believe anything I say?” What’s the point other than to torture me which I think was the point. (laughs) – I think her elephant was really, she knows what it believes and no matter how you try
to persuade her little rider it’s gonna reinforce what
her elephant believes. This is a struggle, Paul,
because we’re human beings and we’ve evolved not to speak truth but to seek validation
in our social tribe . We seek persuasion in our tribe ’cause that’s how we survive. We can transcend that though. That’s the beautiful
thing about being human. We have the brain structure to actually go “No I’m better than that. “I can take a space.” Whether it’s just meditating. Whether it’s paying attention. Whether it’s working on yourself. Whether it’s going to therapy. We can do that. And that’s where I agree with
people like Deepak Chopra where they’re good at being
a guru is where they say “You know we should step back “and say let’s look at ourselves.” So there’s some beauty and truth to be found in all these sides. Even in the anti-vaxxers because at least they have
forced us to question things, confirm what we know through science, and then bring it to the public. So for that I’m grateful I guess. For the rest of it, they can go to hell. – Yeah, no, I think that if there wasn’t a formal
anti-vaccine movement there would have always been
an anti-vaccine sentiment. The fact of the matter is
is you aren’t compelled by the diseases in a manner that I was compelled by the diseases or my parents were
compelled by the diseases. So I think that would
had to have happened. The people would say “Wait, why are we giving
all these vaccines? “We don’t even see these diseases anymore” And we’re starting to see an
increase in chronic disease because frankly we live longer and could those two things be related. I think it would happen
without the Jenny McCarthys or the J.B. Handleys
or the R.F.K. Juniors. I think it would have happened anyways. – Yeah, I think you’re right. We got a little hater here. Lynn Waldrup. “You are not evolved,
nor do you meditate.” (laughs) You don’t know me, Lynn. Okay? Ohm. Actually this is the
worst time to meditate when you’re like highly
emotional and charged. Actually you know what, you can step back and see that as a kind of an experience within your awareness. Anyways, now I’m gonna make Paul Offit into a practicing Buddhist with me right before he goes
to a skeptic conference and everyone makes fun of him. Paul, any last sort of admonishments? Because we’ve come up on an hour now and I wanna respect your time ’cause you have to get
up at the crack of dawn and you’ve been traveling. And you’ve given so much of your time here even though these guys
pounding on the door. Tom, what ended up happening? – [Tom] I called the cops. – Called the cops? – [Tom] They’re in jail. – Are they really? – [Tom] I hope. (laughs) – Oh, I’m so glad. See, I’m not a big gun person. I don’t like guns. – [Paul] Has this happened before? – [Z] Never. – Really, wow. – This is a first, and I
suspect that you’re loony bait. Now, I’ll tell you quick
story that may relate to this and it relates to something
you said in our book. Your hospital Children’s
Hospital of Philadelphia, CHOP, and your organization U-Penn,
have been very supportive of the work that you do because science. And you care about children,
and they know this. But there have been, there are
times when you can say stuff that will upset your employer et cetera. We did a thing where we did flu shots. We got live flu shots. We did a live show like we’re doing now. At our hospital in Las Vegas, our county hospital where I’m on staff, where I round, where I know the CEO, I’m friends with everybody there and they said “Sure CVS won’t
let you get a live flu shot. “They’re too risk averse. “Come over.” They wouldn’t let us do it. The pharmacist said “Mm-mm, we’re not comfortable with that.” – [Paul] What weren’t
they comfortable with? – They weren’t comfortable with us live streaming us getting flu shots. Shame on you, however, Target which is CVS let us do our kids. So it’s always a little soft. So UMC our hospital said
“Sure come and do it there.” So we did the live thing. Everybody got vaccinated. They made it a thing to
vaccinate all the docs too. We made a couple jokes
about, I think, Tom. I said “Now Tom is bout
to get his vaccine. “Prepare to become
severely autistic, Tom.” I said something like “It’ll be an upgrade for you “because you’ll actually be
better at helping me out.” It was a dumb joke. Probably in poor taste but it didn’t occur to me at the time. It’s a live show and we
were trying to be funny. The anti-vax people seized on that joke, not on the fact that
we’re getting flu shots. We’re trying to prevent disease. They seized on that and they made so much
trouble for the hospital that the hospital had
us pull the video down. I never pull videos down, Paul. Ever, ever. I did it for my hospital
because I love and respect them, but I still think it was cowardly. I understand why they did it because of the joke that we made, and that I understand. But the truth is we need to stand together as agents of reason and
people who care and say “You know what, if we have
a united front on this “and we support each
other in communicating “and our institutions support us, “we’ll be much more successful
than if they treat Paul Offit “like a rogue agent
for saying we should do “the right thing for children.” – I would say in defense of my hospital, I have not made things
easy for my hospital by being sort of a lightening rod. It’d be much easier for
them if I didn’t do that. They have consistently stood by me. Our hospital mandates flu vaccines. Starting in 2009, if you
didn’t get a flu vaccine and you were an employee of the hospital meaning you could walk into the room so not just doctors,
nurses, nurse practitioners but dietary services,
environmental services, any who would walk into the
room as a health care employee, you had to get a vaccine. If you didn’t get a vaccine, you had two weeks of unpaid
leave to think bout it. If you still didn’t get a
vaccine, you were fired. Because we made that
decision for our children because we’re responsible for
the children in our hospital. Occasionally influenza is
transmitted in the hospital. Occasionally its transmitted
by health care workers and we have a lot of
children in the hospital that can’t be vaccinated
for obvious reasons because they’re getting cancer
chemo therapy or whatever. – Right, right. I think that makes a lot of sense. So I’m glad. I wanna give a shout out
to CHOP for supporting you. It’s a really big deal. UPMC’s decision to give Flublok,
the egg free flu vaccine. – [Paul] The recombinant vaccine. – Yeah, the recombinant one. What’s your thoughts on that? Is that something that ought to be doing? – No, I think it’s interesting. The flu is elusive. Puts it mildly. It is a moving target. So every year it mutates so
much from one year to the next, we need to give you the yearly vaccine and I’m actually on the FDA’s
vaccine advisory committee that actually makes the decision about which strains are put in there. – Sorry, just substitute
FDA for Illuminati and I think we have an
answer there, right. Mm hmm. – [Paul] Lizard Illuminati. – What was that? – [Paul] Lizard Illuminati. – Lizard, oh right, that’s
the best kind of Illuminati. Anyways, go on. – So we make that decision in March what goes in in September so it depends how the virus moves It’s not just all these
types like H1N1 or H3N2 but there’s these subclades,
so it’s really hard. And usually it comes
up from South America, but sometimes not exactly,
so in 2014, 2015, we missed. The strains that we had in there, specifically the H3N2 that
virus had drifted so much so that it didn’t cover it at all. So that’s the second thing it does. But to answer your Flublok question, this is sort of a little complicated, but when you make this vaccine in eggs, you grow the virus in eggs. So the virus actually can
drift a little in eggs. – [Z] As it’s replicating. – Whereas that doesn’t happen with the recombinant DNA vaccine, nor does it happen when
there’s a cell-based vaccine. FLUCELVAX. – [Z] Canine cells? – That’s right. Canine kidney cells. – Did you get super dog
powers when you get injected with dog cells? – You do. You bark. That exactly what happens. – And you understand Fido. – Now you got it. – I’ve seen Beethoven
One and Two, Paul, okay. – So you know. – I know. Actually so that’s great. One thing I want to point out, and I think this will put
a coat on the whole show ’cause we’ve gone an hour and I really wanna respect your time. Even though I keep asking you questions ’cause I love you so much, Paul Offit. What you just said about drift, and this and that and
the other thing, people. People, I’m gonna talk to
the camera for a second, which I don’t do. I’m gonna break the third, fourth, what wall is is Tom Hinueber? – [Tom] Four. – I’m breaking the fourth wall. That’s complicated. We have to believe in our experts. In working on this, they study and work
very hard to understand this expertise that not everyone have, not every doctor can have. So this is very important that we promote the improvement in flu vaccine. We promote science. We promote more knowledge. Like you said, we’re gonna know more in 10 years than we know now. As always. That’s how science works. So Paul Offit, man, I’m
so glad you could brave this nonsense, fatigue, and
these two clowns in the back which I mean you’ve only seen
a third of what they can do (laughs) to come on the
show and enlighten us and talk to us. I wanna thank you personally
for all that you do, and I know it’s hard
and I know your family. I know how hard it is on family because my family has the same thing. Like after this last thing where people in the comments were
threatening my daughter’s life and saying horrible things about my kids, a part of me is like
“Should I not do this?” And I asked my kids and they were like “Screw these people Dad. “They wanna be mean to us
we’ll show ’em what we can do. “Give me the shot.” They were gung-ho to do
it because they thought it would help other kids
and they’re like kids. Why can’t grown ups be that cool? – How old are your kids? – [Z] 10 and seven. – That’s great. – So anyways Paul, thank you. Knock ’em dead tomorrow at the conference. Any parting words? Buy the book. I’m gonna tell you that. – Thanks for having me on. This was fun. It was fun for getting to see. I see your videos, and
it’s just cool seeing you. See, I’m like a fan. – That’s crazy, and I
don’t believe it at all. That’s really, really awesome man. Oh, one last thing for the ZPac, if you like the kind of
work we’re doing here please, please, please become a supporter. Click the button that
says become a supporter. For $4.99 a month, you get private uncensored
conversations with me. We’re soon gonna do CME so when I do a live
show people can a button and go through to CME. – [Paul] That’s great. – So the bigger tribe we get, the less we ever have
to worry about sponsors and commercial entanglements. We can just give you the truth
and bring great guests on. Paul Offit, thank you. – Thank you. – [Z] Thank you so much. We out!

77 thoughts on “The Danger of Celebrity Health Advice (w/Dr. Paul Offit) | Incident Report 192

  1. Would it be a danger to take advice from a celebrity licensed medical doctor about the danger of celebrity health advice? 🤔

  2. Don't you wish that some of these antivaxxers would step on a nail and then come back to us when they have tetanus to tell us where the vaccine hurt them?

  3. ZDoggMD you don’t have Antifa thugs attacking you… you have ANTI-VA thugs attacking you. I think it’s a badge of honor.

  4. Disclaimer: I’m not an anti-vaxxer, and I work in a field of hard science.
    I think the Department of Nutrition at the Harvard Chan School of Public Health (where basically all dietary advice from the medical community originates) is completely full of crap. Many people would be better off listening to alternate sources. Does that make me anti-science?



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    Dr. Theresa Deisher, a PhD in Molecular and Cellular Physiology from Stanford University, the first person to discover adult cardiac derived stem cells, determined that residual human fetal DNA fragments in vaccines may be one of the causes of autism in children through vaccination.

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    “It is possible that these contaminating fragments could be incorporated into a child’s genome and disrupt normal gene function, leading to autistic phenotypes.”

    You can read the full study HERE.

    She has spent over 19 years in commercial biotechnology with various companies that include Genentech, Repligen, Amgen and her discoveries have led to clinical trials for multiple diseases. For more about her and her background, you can click here. As we can see, Deisher has a strong scientific background.

    The Importance of Independent Research

    When we are talking about scientific studies regarding vaccines, we are bombarded with pharmaceutical sponsored studies, studies that are sponsored by the vaccine manufacturers themselves. These are the studies used to justify the safety of various vaccines children receive shortly after birth and into their childhood. It’s one of the most controversial issues in medicine today.

    I find it perplexing how many peer-reviewed scientific publications, old and recent, clearly indicate the multiple dangers that are associated with vaccines yet the public is often bombarded and heavily marketed with how safe vaccines are.

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    Just as there is data suggesting vaccines are safe, there is also data suggesting that they aren’t. This is why it’s so important to do your own research, and not just accept what you are told blindly without investigation. Again, there are numerous publications in very reputable, peer-reviewed scientific journals that clearly outline multiple dangers associated with vaccines. But not all investigation should be limited to peer-reviewed scientific publications, we must also examine independent research from scientists, like Dr. Deisher.

    A common misconception is that the “anti vaccination” crowd does not understand science. Truth is, a large portion of the “anti vaccination” crowd are scientists, PhD’s, and professors. “Anti-vaccination” movements are backed by a tremendous amount of science, just as is the “pro-vaccination” movement. But at the end of the day, there is really no need for these types of segregatory labels. It’s best to examine the science from a place of complete neutrality. Often, our beliefs about vaccines prevent us from doing this.

    Efforts have been made to silence the ongoing critical discussion which questions the safety of vaccines. This is absolutely ridiculous, as this topic still has many unanswered questions. Science does not move forward through the censorship of critical discussion. Any call to silence the critical discussion of a still very open scientific question is troubling. Science progresses by investigation, debate and full discussion, not by censorship and omission of information.

    This is exactly why independent research is so important. Documents obtained by Lucija Tomljenovic, (another scientist and independent researcher who has shed light on important facts about vaccinations) PhD, from the Neural Dynamics Research Group in the Department of Ophthalmology and Visual Sciences at the University of British Columbia reveal that vaccine manufacturers, pharmaceutical companies and health authorities have known about multiple dangers associated with vaccines but chose to withhold them from the public. This is scientific fraud, and suggests that this practice continues till this day. (source) A recent whistleblower from the CDC also recently admitted that the CDC has omitted data that links vaccines to autism, you can read more about that here.

    This is one small example (out of many) about the type of information we don’t hear about, but is extremely important to know about.

    Here is a video of Lucija making some very important points. We do live in an era of scientific fraud, and manipulation of data for ulterior motives, and one of them includes money. Regardless, independent research is very important!

    For more CE articles on the topic of vaccines, and to view more studies and information, please click HERE,

    For more CE articles on the Vaccine/Autism Controversy, please click HERE.

    Get Your FREE In Depth Numerology Reading

    Free & customized Numerology reading from your name & birth date. Click here.


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  6. HEY Z! Have a conversation with a dude by the name of Cole Robinson. He has a lot of good ideas about health (proper fasting, exercise etc.) and some really bad (leaning antivax), so I am sure it is gonna be a useful conversation, especially for the hundred thousands of people following him.

  7. Just ordered Dr. Offit’s book (Kindle) off Amazon. 😁

    I think you need some pro-vaxx merch. My humble suggestion would be……

    “I vaccinate so our children can have another birthday to celebrate.”

    P.S. Freddy Mercury DOES rock! 😎

  8. Hey ZDoggMD! I really loved this video and the discussions on how the anti-vax movement came to be and why they believe what they believe. As someone with a close relative who refused to vaccinate her two kids, I've talked a lot on the "research" she has done vs the research I have done so I think I have some perspective you might find interesting when it comes to trying to convince them, and I think a lot of it comes down to Andrew Wakefield tbh. When you talk about how media is unhelpful when it comes to this debate, it's because they are not focusing the discussion in a way that highlights the true damage done by Wakefield.

    We (non-antivaxxers) all know why Wakefield can't be trusted, so why, when I said that, did my cousin give me a bunch of links that attempted to prove that Wakefield was right? One of these links btw was to Mercola's website and interview of Wakefield. Instantly I knew that she had been given bad information. But as I personally did more research into vaccines and specifically Andrew Wakefield, I realized that the media focus on him and what he did was what was wrong. If you tell an anti-vax parent that Wakefield did a study that tried to prove a thing but it was retracted and so he can't be trusted, they probably won't listen to you. If you tell an anti-vax parent that Wakefield did a study that caused autistic children to receive medically unnecessary lumbar punctures and colonoscopies, all while receiving tons of money from lawyers and trying to file a patent, they instantly want to know more. Maybe they won't agree, but they want to know more, which is a start. Even people I know who do believe in vaccines had ZERO idea about the study protocol and it changes the entire way they think about Wakefield.

    Current media coverage does not mention the lumbar punctures or colonoscopies AT ALL. Even if you just put the needle from a lumbar puncture next to a needle for a vaccine, I think framing it in those terms will make parents more likely to listen to the other side. There is a lot of deprogramming that needs to happen but IMO it has to start where this whole controversy began, with Andrew Wakefield and EXACTLY why his study was retracted.

    On a different note, I am not a scientist or doctor, but when initially given anti-vax information (prior to knowing really anything about anti-vaxxers and the community and allllll the stuff) the places that I went to were medical blogs written by actual professionals. Not always were they written to my academic level, but because I had to do so much research into what all the sides were saying I quickly picked up what I needed to know.

    BTW getting my flu shot this week! Got the flu last year, never again!!!

  9. Having a dog has taught me the importance of vaccinations. My dog has had her full series of vaccinations since she was a puppy, and that has potentially saved her life. Never would I have thought that Parvo virus would be introduced into our neighborhood and kill off the non-vaccinated dogs and puppies. Watching all those dogs get so sick and die from such a terrible disease was so heartbreaking. The most heartbreaking part was that it could have been prevented with a simple shot. My dog was exposed to the sick dog that brought the disease to us, but because of a decision I had made for her she did not suffer a terrible fate. Vaccines save lives!

  10. Z, you’re a hero! Keep up the good fight for all our sakes! Express my gratitude to Dr. Offit for his work, dedication, and sacrifice to do the right thing.
    OFF TOPIC SIDENOTE: please do a show helping to diffuse the stigma of having a stoma. Explain to people that we’re not gross or unsanitary and that those of us post-proctectomy NEED to use taller, handicapped toilets.
    I have had permanent ileostomy and proctectomy. There is little to no medical media on ileostomy, colostomy, or urostomy. We are not pariahs! Thanks 💕

  11. Dr. Offit is amazing. Thank you for your dedication to both the profession and to society. We need more well-equipped doctors to step up and write on the issue of vaccination. Great interview.

  12. I'm grateful to Dr. O. My spouse and I got something we think was probably rotovirus; our 14 mo fully vaccinated toddler was fine.

  13. I met Paul at the ACIP a few years ago. Just bought the book. And yes, I am a pediatrician AND the parent of an autistic kid. Vaccines are life saving !!!!

  14. I'm in my twenties and I'm not skeptical of these vaccines. We don't have these diseases anymore, they are gone specifically because of vaccines.

  15. Truly can’t believe some of the comments here. I wish Dr Jenny McCarthy would stop and think of the patients like my nephew. Teenagers who’s whole immune systems were knocked out by chemo. And the fear they live in during recuperation, before they can get revaccinated, that they’re going to run into a non-vaccinated kid and get sick and possibly die from something minor bc they have NO immune system. If you don’t want to vaccinate your kid, fine. Just stay the hell home, home school your kid, work from home and get your groceries delivered and stay in your bubble and stay away from the rest of us

  16. without vaccines, we would have the most advanced, technologically revolutionized iron lung that money can ever buy, but we would still have polio [as an epidemic problem].

  17. When people talk about not getting the chicken pox vaccine I want to scream. I had the chicken pox as a child, the vaccine didn't exist when I had them, and yes I was young enough that my infection was mild. But years later I had to suffer through shingles, lost two weeks of work, and suffered from neuropathy for months and there is a real possibility I could have shingles again. The really sad things is there are people who have much worse cases than I did. I am getting the new shingles vaccine and paying for it out my own pocket because I am not "old " enough!

  18. Dr. Offit, love hearing you speak back in medical school. Glad you are still fighting the good fight. Thanks for taking on this task. We the clinical docs need to keep showing our patients and their families the real data.

  19. I've so noticed, antivaxers hate "Big Pharma", "They only want MONEY!!!!" "They will do anything, for money, kill your children for MONEY!!"
    But, boy oh boy, do they want you to spend your money, on THEIR, snake essential oils. "Spend your money on MY oils, I kill kids, but organically. That makes me sooo much more ethical. I have NO real medical training, but my district snake oils sales team leader, a high school drop out, told me all about it, so it must be true. Lets talk about you buying the family oil kit, ONLY $500.00 dollars, per ounce."

  20. Finally watched the whole video, Z smiled during the yelling and knocking but I can see Doc Vader wanting to come out 😁. You are a good man Z, please keep up the public service, keep up the battle against ignorance. I can't help but feel like we are underdogs in this fight.

  21. As a mom of two autistic kids it makes me sick to my stomach that people would rather have a dead child, than one who’s autistic. Makes me lose faith in humanity

  22. what we should do: make vaccinations required to attend public school. antivaxxers form their own school. compare statistics on autism rates and such between the two

  23. Educated and informed people are perceived as a threat. There is good and bad in every aspect of life. Arming ourselves with as much information as possible, helps us weed out the bad. I have twins on the spectrum that received the same vaccines my older neurotypical singletons received. Something is definitely happening genetically and what is causing it is difficult to narrow down. Personally I believe it's evolution, but that's another story. The pros of vaccines far outweigh the cons.

  24. Surely, autism in kids is just purely bad luck – or, in my family's lexicon, poor toilet training. It's not the end of the world, especially when we know just how diverse the spectrum is these days.

  25. As a science writer, I want to fill the niche of helping scientists communicate. That's my goal, and it's been my goal from the moment I realized I loved explaining science more than I loved the science itself.

    Also Wakefield can go to hell. I'm so glad my parents didn't believe his bullshit.

  26. I’m really glad I watched this. Thanks for this. I can let go of the stupid irrational fear that has always nagged at me that worried a little that maybe anti-vaxxers were right. I can’t wait till we know what causes autism.
    The fear never overrid doing what I know is responsible parenting. What I know as a clinical laboratory scientist. We got all our shots and kid got the 1st hpv last month. This is the first time I’ve actually felt good about getting it done. It’s felt like a scary chore from the moment I became a mom. I kinda resent that. 😕
    Anti-vaxx nurses are a scourge.

  27. Zdogg is right about Offit being able to talk so freely and believably. This was nice to watch. I've only ever watched antivax villainization of him

  28. Phenol look it up on CDC website. Now look up Hitler and phenol on wikipedia. We all are getting this! Age and gender plays a big part! The way phenol works is that a dr gives this to you and you will come back in two months with a new disease! I was given a diagnosis of MS, neuropathy, brain infection and part of my brain missing in 2016!(Bullshit) This causes (Supposedly)Alzheimer's, dementia, Parkinson's, diabetes, high blood pressure, stroke, heart attack, thick toenails, lymphoma, blindness, anorexia, depression, dehydration, suicidal thoughts, MS, lupus, impotence, HIV, anxiety, mute, autism, ADHD all auto immune disease's "All". This is a nerve blocker/blocked artery that mimics a disease you don't have! Marijuana is mentioned in the bible this protects your nervous system! Phenol destroys your nervous system! I thought I was going crazy until my wife seen the helicopter in front of my house! This is some serious shit! FBI will not help me! FDA and IDFPR are doing investigation now! I need help please! I was told I would be okay! Under other names in majority of everything we eat and touch! This how dogs get diabetes, hip problems and other! I have a list of celebrities! Phyllis Hyman, Doug Banks, Craig Mack, Kimbo Slice, Charlie Murphy and much more… Anthony Bourdain was on chantix it contains phenol and will give you suicidal thoughts now Ray Liotta is taking this! In cigarettes addictive! In a famous diet pill! Jesus Walks

  29. "Flawed assumptions fuel autoimmune disease: The sorry state of vaccine safety science" – (2017).

  30. I'm sorry but for someone who wants people on the fence to "believe the science", they didn't talk about any of the hard science. There are 17 studies… while not naming a single one in the interview or in the description. This interview was more along the lines of believe us we are experts.

    Also, did anyone catch that zdog claims to have done the research but then later admits he's not a good scientist and is more of an emotional communicator?

  31. Zdogg I love you but wtf? People or person pounding on the glass and shouting? How did this person find your exact location? Why not just send someone out to talk with them instead of loading guns and calling the police. I'm not an anti-vaxxer, but you do a disservice to confused people only adding to the hysteria.

  32. I’m an anti vaxxer who is appreciating this video. I’m about halfway through. Thank you for the upload. And thank you Dr Offit for at least being compassionate and respectful about this issue and discussion.

  33. Celebrities can pay the best doctors, this is were they get their advices, not from corrupted one like Dr. Paul Offit who is paid by Pharma indsutries (he admited it)
    Wake up.


  35. In all my years of vaccine research, talking with people, informing folks, reading voraciously, I have never ONCE read a piece by Jenny McCarthy nor have I EVER mentioned her to anyone. The science is ALL that matters and the science is quite CLEAR on the INHERENT dangers of vaccines.

    Someone on here commented about Wakefield on a mercola site and instantly this person knew what he was to read was utter bullshit because it was on mercolas site. This is whats called cognitive dissonance.

    One is made to believe a one dimensional "truth" through a consistent barrage of media sensory input repeated over and over again. Rather than listening and gathering information to cross reference, this person decides to completely omit valuable information. Imagine a lawyer or a detective not wanting to use evidence because they didn't believe it.

    This person also incorrectly links Wakefield to actual medical procedures, the colonoscopies. Wakefield was the analyst, the data manager. His hands never wore gloves. The procedures were performed by the worlds leading gastroenterologist, Professor John Walker Smith, who has since been exonerated all charges dropped and the paper should "be reinstated" in the Lancet.

    Obviously this person and many on here have not caught up with the news.

    Heres an older nugget.

  36. That's a guy whose kid was killed by her vaccines out there you dick. Wasn't this guy's rotavirus vaccine pulled off the market in 1999?

  37. Oh but wait. Here’s the science. 1000 published articles not funded by pharma

    Criminal and misleading video. Why not debate del bitter or susann Humphries or sherry tenoenny?

  38. Cool government science and shills! Listen to the parents outside who lost their child losers! This is garbage. Vaccines cause autism.

  39. I am vaccine-hesitant, but this was a great interview. I did feel like the anti-vaxxers at the window seemed staged (but who's to tell for sure). However, what I thought this interview missed the most was discussion of the whistleblowers William Thompson and Andrew Zimmerman. You talked much about how if people think there's a conspiracy, there's nothing you can do about that. Well, take the big parts of why people think there's a conspiracy and dissect that. Everything that I have read about these two stories so far has been far from satisfactory. In addition, you mentioned Andrew Wakefield wondering if he had narcissism. I laughed because I have studied narcissism a lot and have wondered if the pharmaceutical CEOs have just that. I have read extensively about Andrew Wakefield with an open mind. I have read much of Brian Deer's work with actual consideration. But in the end, I come out believing Wakefield, and feel that his rebuttals of his accusations are legitimate. And if he's telling the truth, this is one more piece to point to conspiracy. These things need to be addressed beyond, "There is no conspiracy; Thompson was a little looney, but don't worry, the data he gave didn't in fact point to MMR and autism increase in black babies; and Wakefield drew blood at a birthday party." Uhhh…

    The second critique I have, and it's for both this interview and the pro-vax stance in general is the hysteria over measles. It's really hard to take the pro-vax stance seriously when they blow something way out of proportion. Not just out of proportion, but as I see it, odds are in my favor of getting measles and being protected from Hodgkin's Lymphoma and Non-Hodgkin's lymphoma vs the small number of people who die from measles. That's not to mention MMR side effects. Unless you have a rebuttal to this (I would like to hear it), the panic over measles really makes me feel like the pro-vax side is blowing smoke. Never exaggerate. It is so obvious to those of us that are carefully reading and thinking critically.

    This interview did address what's wrong with natural immunity. But I found that discussion very lacking and unpersuasive.

    That said, I did find Paul Offit to seem a much better person than I imagined. I appreciated his care that he seemed to exude. This is much more persuasive than the typical eye-rolling feel I often get from the pro-vax side when they address anti-vaxxers. No, our concerns are not out there, completely illogical. They make a lot of sense. I want someone in the pro-vax side to address them without the snark. It's like talking to someone who degrades you and your thoughts. It doesn't help persuade you at all. Just makes you feel like they are a dick who doesn't listen. Always open conversations. Many of Paul Offit's responses in this were thus. So thanks.

    I write comments like this (questions and criticisms) on anti-vax videos as well, so don't take this personally. Please take it as constructive criticism, and what can be addressed in the future. Because so far I am unconvinced on the vaccine side. But I would like to be convinced, as I have nothing to lose if they truly are safe.

    I am all and only about a good constructive debate where we all have the safety of children in mind. Bring up the points. Bring up the data. Let your opponent scrutinize them. And everyone addresses the best points of the opponent, not only their weakest points. Because we all just want truth, not just to be "right." Right?

  40. Why doesn't MERCK just sue people like Robert F. Kennedy for slander. Open/shut Case isn't it? The science is settled.

  41. Are people not even thinking why there is an increase in “anti-vax” people? If I was observing from their perspective, I would at least look into it and ask why is there so much children

    becoming vaccine damaged? Why is there such a resistance with vaccines? Why are people voicing their concerns and risks?

  42. He questioned why we feel this way or are indoctrinated to feel this way and that is hilarious. My son wasn't born with autism and his story is unique. It was 100% the vaccines and I can prove it. I didn't go into parenthood thinking anything was wrong with vaccines. We vaccinated. Then we learned and our other 2 unvaccinated children are not autistic so you are wrong on the matter. Too many doctors and scientists that aimed to blow the whistle on the real data behind the autism and vaccine connection have been raided and then murdered for you to not look further. Oh, and stop referencing the bogus studies that compared partially vaccinated to vaccinated adding MMR to rule out the autism connection. There needs to be an unvaccinated compared to vaccinated with the complete schedule study. The science on that will never be settled until that study is done. #DOTHESTUDY

  43. Where did Dr. Wakefield write that MMR CAUSES Autism? Any scientist would know case series cannot prove causality. Is Dr. Offit lying about this study?
    RETRACTED: Ileal-lymphoid-nodular hyperplasia, non-specific colitis, and pervasive developmental disorder in children Dr AJ Wakefield, et al:
    Onset of behavioural symptoms was associated, by the parents, with measles, mumps, and rubella vaccination in eight of the 12 children, with measles infection in one child, and otitis media in another. All 12 children had intestinal abnormalities, ranging from lymphoid nodular hyperplasia to aphthoid ulceration. Histology showed patchy chronic inflammation in the colon in 11 children and reactive ileal lymphoid hyperplasia in seven, but no granulomas. Behavioural disorders included autism (nine), disintegrative psychosis (one), and possible postviral or vaccinal encephalitis (two). There were no focal neurological abnormalities and MRI and EEG tests were normal. Abnormal laboratory results were significantly raised urinary methylmalonic acid compared with agematched controls (p=0·003), low haemoglobin in four children, and a low serum IgA in four children.
    We identified associated gastrointestinal disease and developmental regression in a group of previously normal children, which was generally associated in time with possible environmental triggers.

    We did not prove an association between measles, mumps, and rubella vaccine and the syndrome described. Virological studies are underway that may help to resolve this issue.
    If there is a causal link between measles, mumps, and rubella vaccine and this syndrome, a rising incidence might be anticipated after the introduction of this vaccine in the UK in 1988. Published evidence is inadequate to show whether there is a change in incidence22
    or a link with measles, mumps, and rubella vaccine.23
    A genetic predisposition to autistic-spectrum disorders is suggested by over-representation in boys and a greater concordance rate in monozygotic than in dizygotic twins.15
    In the context of susceptibility to infection, a genetic association with autism, linked to a null allele of the complement (C) 4B gene located in the class III region of the major-histocompatibility complex, has been recorded by Warren and colleagues.24
    C4B-gene products are crucial for the activation of the complement pathway and protection against infection: individuals inheriting one or two C4B null alleles may not handle certain viruses appropriately, possibly including attenuated strains.
    Urinary methylmalonic-acid concentrations were raised in most of the children, a finding indicative of a functional vitamin B12 deficiency. Although vitamin B12 concentrations were normal, serum B12 is not a good measure of functional B12 status.25
    Urinary methylmalonic-acid excretion is increased in disorders such as Crohn's disease, in which cobalamin excreted in bile is not reabsorbed. A similar problem may have occurred in the children in our study. Vitamin B12 is essential for myelinogenesis in the developing central nervous system, a process that is not complete until around the age of 10 years. B12 deficiency may, therefore, be a contributory factor in the developmental regression.26
    We have identified a chronic enterocolitis in children that may be related to neuropsychiatric dysfunction. In most cases, onset of symptoms was after measles, mumps, and rubella immunisation. Further investigations are needed to examine this syndrome and its possible relation to this vaccine.

  44. @16:30 Does anyone see any conection of the attenuated rubella virus from the MMR vaccine and Dr. Zimmerman's statement about risk of autism in the children with mitochondrial disorders? Rubella virus attackes mitochondria. What will happend to a developing brain if the virus from the vaccine passes the brain-blood barier?

  45. “Agents of reason” great name for a superhero squad of skeptics. Because logic, reason, science and evidence are all they need! They don’t need to have imaginary powers or magical thinking

  46. So what was the placebo Dr. Offitt's Vaccine was compared too? Sugar pill, saline, or another dangerous vaccine? I'd like to know.

  47. I want Paul Ofit Immunity 51:40 "no worries, I got natural measles, no problem." Over the shot with known
    side effects, and you have to receive boosters, over and over again. No way!

  48. Blood transfusion adverse immune response is very similar to vaccine adverse reactions… Why is that? In some of the reactions they don't know why it occurs w the transfusion. These reactions can happen days to weeks later. So NO you Dr.s & scientist don't know everything about the immune system & why reactions occur in some & not others..

  49. What about the environmental causes? A friend had kids in his 20s and all 3 have autism. He and his wife are of above-average intelligence and functioning. However he worked with pesticides in his late teens/early 20s. Like I'd love to see more research into how this all works.

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